Separation of Church and Hate?
By Noel Bagwell
November 19, 2008
What does that even mean? Proposition 8 has really stirred the rancor of rabidly gay protesters in California, and one is given to wonder if it’s really all about love or if this is really about their anger at Californians’ resistance to the shoving-down-the-throat (sorry) of liberals’ views that they’ve had to endure for so, so long.
See, the issue of homosexual marriage has nothing to do with love. It has nothing, really, to do with hate. It doesn’t even matter whether or not you think homosexuality or homosexual couples should be legal or legally-recognized relationships.
What it has to do with is the word: “marriage.” That word is the key to a flurry of ideas. In the article Orwell’s Children Bruce Walker says,
Too many of us for comfort or solace have become just like the denizens of Jonestown: Orwell’s children — a new generation of creature enraged into constant militancy against eternal enemies, oblivious to the notion of a Blessed Creator, melded into the consciousness of the party hive, divorced from history, hypnotized by images, inoculated against reason, stripped of family, and existing only to serve the cause.
Later in the article, he also said,
Language must be brought to heel. The Nazis did this by inventing meaningless words like “Aryan science.” Marxism foisted upon us words like “capitalism,” which means nothing at all but which has so infected our minds that we reflexively use this silly nonsense word instead of freedom. Politically correct language is rampant. We come to view words like “discriminate” as inherently evil, and other words like “viable fetal mass” have replaced the reality of murdered babies.
Image and symbols replace words. Hitler, whose disciples seldom recalled what Hitler said, always recalled the raw imagery of their leader. Stalin’s portrait was as inescapable in the Soviet Union as the portrait of Big Brother in Oceania. We live in a word of symbols and images. Conservatives succeed in books and talk radio, media that deal in words. Orwell’s Children live in the realm of symbols and images.
He was very accurately describing the “specific elements necessary for nations with a heritage of freedom to slide into the most absolute and abject slavery,” the “characteristics of the Orwellian state.” But Walker is both right and wrong, we have used images to replace words – where possible – but the key to the smoke-and-mirrors tactics of deception the Left uses to market their wacky ideas lies in the subtle change over time in how we use words.
Orwell hauntingly described the change in language that occurred in Oceania. Liberals in the United States are trying to change language in a way that is similar to that which Orwell described, by classifying certain words as “hateful” or “hate speech” and moving to ban or make taboo the usage of certain words and phrases. This is nothing short of “trimming” the ideas they dislike by removing the words we have for them from everyday use. Eventually we trim so much that we lose words altogether along with the concepts for which they stand.
Walker is both right and wrong because though liberals would rather replace words with images, they also replace arguments (whole thought streams) with loaded words. “Capitalism” is a good one, as is “conservative,” or “a woman’s right to choose” (or the shortened form “womens’ rights”); the list goes on and on and on. Ann Coulter frequently mentions how liberals keep coming up with new euphamisms for themselves, like “reformist,” because she says their ideas are unpopular with the general public. I think they do this to avoid the stigma associated with the loaded words that have come to dominate the political landscape, because conservatives have adopted this shameful tactic, too, sometimes in lieu of having to make actual arguments for which they don’t have time, because the arguments on television news / political commentary shows are rushed, rude, usually misinformed and driven by the political biases of the show’s host(s).
If someone were to try to string together a cogent argument on Keith Olbermann’s program, for example, he’d cut them off, interrupt them, and slam them with a string of loaded terms against which they’d have no recourse, because counterarguments against arguments comprised of loaded terms involves deconstructing the each term, pointing out the logical flaws inherent in their use, and then arguing against each complex issue – something that you just don’t have time for outside of a book.
A funny example of this sort of “editing by taboo” was when Joy Behar flipped out on The View, when Bill O’Reilly half-jokingly called Barack Hussein Obama a Communist. Hey, if the shoe fits. . . Mr. O’Reilly eventually conceded that, okay, maybe he’s just a “socialist.” Six in one hand, half a dozen in the other, in my opinion. Behar said, “You know what a red flag that is… “Commie” in this country,” chiding Mr. O’Reilly for his humorous remark.
So, it’s not just images – although those are used to great effect to evoke emotions, rather than make rational arguments – it’s “image words,” the loaded terms that come with a whole pre-packaged argument (from either side) that have become part of the modern political landscape. Watch for this phenomenon. You’ll be amazed to see how you can learn to “predict” which side of an argument someone is on, once you start noticing the terms they use.
A fun exercise (and you can try this at home) is to see if someone is a liberal or a conservative by intentionally using loaded terms, and then watching for a reaction. For example, just using Barack Hussein Obama’s middle name when referring to him or using the word “homosexual,” intentionally, instead of “gay” are all good loaded words to use, if you want to watch someone’s reaction to determine their political stance. I think you’ll find that conservatives, by and large, will bristle less at the above terms – because they’re descriptive, not offensive – whereas liberals will bristle because they call to mind ideas and concepts that they support, but which, as Ann Coulter points out, are unpalatable to the majority of Americans.
To bring the discussion full circle: Liberals know that if they can get the word “marriage” applied to their homosexual relationships, they gain tangential mental concepts like “family,” “acceptance,” “adoption,” “children,” “stability,” etc. and mental concepts like “stigma,” “outsiders,” “odd,” “queer,” “alternative lifestyle,” etc. are marginalized. Liberals and homosexual “rights” activists (pardon the rendundancy) are not satisfied with civil unions because, though they are legally identical to a marriage, civil unions don’t carry the ideological weight and cultural acceptance that marriages do.
That’s what they’re really after: acceptance, social and cultural. It has nothing to do with their legal rights because (1) there is no Constitutional right to gay marriage in any Constitution (including the U.S. Constitution or any state’s Constitution) and (2) if it were about their legal rights, they’d be satisfied with civil unions (and the benefits available to everyone through contract law), and wouldn’t push the “marriage” issue.






Precisely. I’ve argued this over and over, even with near-rabid homosexual liberal folk. Your last paragraph is spot on, and a great summary.
Tangentially, while we’re talking about politically correct speech, I find it interesting that evoking Godwin’s Law is an internet shorthand for claiming hyperbole, and ignoring reality. Those who see “Hitler” early in your post may not bother with much reading beyond that.
To their loss.
Even further tangentially (but still in line with the neutering of language and precision and honesty in communication), comparisons of the current political landscape to Hitler, and the U. S. economy to that of the Weimar Republic are not hyperbolic. There are some very real and troubling parallels. Even Hitler was loved by his people at one point.
Ignoring the very real erosion of liberty and the dangerous precedents being set in government just because we’re too afraid to speak openly of Hitler and his slow boil abuses is not only intellectually dishonest, but precipitously blind.
These are not my words, but rather taken from the following site:
http://www.legal-database.com/civil-union-marriage.htm
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Besides the emotional component of simply being “married,” there are quite a few legal differences between the two statuses, primarily that civil unions are only recognized in the state in which they are performed, while marriages are recognized in all 50 states. Because civil unions are recognized only in the state performed, civil unions do not get any federal protections. Moreover, if a same-sex couple were recognized in a civil union in Vermont, they would not be recognized in Texas, while a marriage in one state is recognized in all states.
Also, with a civil union, if the couple wants it dissolved, they must get it dissolved in the state it was conducted. For instance, in Vermont, civil unions can only be dissolved in Vermont and one of the partners must have been a resident of the state to get it dissolved. On the other hand, a married couple can get a divorce in any of the fifty states.
Moreover, civil unions – because they are not recognized by the federal government – do not gain any of the tax breaks that married couples get, such as the ability to file their taxes jointly. In all, there are over 1,000 benefits and protections afforded to married couples by the federal government that civil unions do not get.
As to your first point regarding recognition of marriages between states, please read up on the DOMA.
Wikipedia:
Contract law can satisfy the “rights” that civil unions don’t. The application of the label “marriage,” is simply and unequivocally wrong, not just from a moral standpoint (although I believe that to be the case), but from a logical standpoint.
Homosexual relationships are not marriage. Period. They never have been. They never will be. You can’t equivocate on the two without fundamentally redefining marriage, which is something that the vast of majority of Americans do not want to do.
Because this is the case, it is inappropriate (to use the mildest term I can think of) to try to push this agenda on the unwilling majority.
Furthermore, I don’t think that homosexuals should get tax breaks for being in a homosexual relationship. I can understand married couples getting a tax break, because they can produce children, which contributes to the population of the society. The married couples are producing a product the society needs: more people. Hence, it makes sense to give them a financial break to make that easier.
Homosexuals contribute nothing positive to society, beyond good fashion sense and a few cheap laughs at their expense.
Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo, Tchaikovsky, Benjamin Britten, W. H. Auden, Leonard Bernstein, the most recent vice-chairman of Ford Motor Co., Versace, Elton John, k.d. lang, Martina Navratilova, Henry James, Walt Whitman, Tennessee Williams, H. C. Andersen, Oscar Wilde, Arthur Rimbaud, Julius Caesar, Aaron Copeland, E. M. Forster, Rock Hudson, Lytton Strachey, W. Somerset Maugham, Sir Ian McKellen, Sir Peter Pears, Alan Turing, Gertrude Stein, Ludwig Wittgenstein. But of course, these individuals contributed nothing positive to society.
The contract laws you speak up and the lawyers fees associated with it can range in the thousands, whereas a marriage license is a fraction of the price.
I am of the opinion that marriage should be abolished, in general, as a federal and state recognized agreement. Marriage should be in a church. However, it is unlikely that this will happen in the near future. In the UK, there is a similar method, and anarchy has hardly broken out.
The definition of marriage has changed over the years, regardless. It is not the same institution it once was. Otherwise, racial barriers would still exist, people would marry primarily for money and stature rather than love, and women would still be considered the property of their husbands.
What in the case of married couples who are infertile or too old to conceive? Are their marriages made less valid because they cannot produce children? No, they’re not. So, why should homosexual couples be any different?
I should have said they contribute nothing to society as a result of their relationship. That was implicit in what I said. I should consider my audience’s abilities to make inferences more carefully, I suppose, and make such statements more clear to avoid confusion or distortion of what I mean.
Millions of dollars are spent around the country every year in the effort to redefine marriage. Perhaps a reallocation of those funds would be wise. For example, those dollars could be spent on legal fees for consenting adults who require contracts made for social / health concerns. Of course, lawyers could do the work pro-bono, if they really supported “the cause.”
And this is why I approved this comment. Everyone needs to see how insane the people are who argue for this sort of rubbish. You’re essentially arguing that the legal recognition of marriage should end (absurd). You are a crazy person. It’s not an insult, just an observation.
It’s not that homosexual couples “should be any different,” it’s that they are different. This is not a difficult concept to grasp – simply one your bleeding liberal heart refuses to acknowledge.
The details of marital arrangements change, but the fundamental definition of marriage has not changed over the years, as you claim. This is the error in your reasoning. This is not about the motivations for marriage (as is the case with people who marry for money and stature, which still happens!), nor is it about property rights, nor is it even comparable to interracial marriage (which is insulting to those in interracial relationships, by the way, for those of you who value being “politically correct”; check yo’self before you wreck yo’self).
Homosexual couples are different from any other kind of couples, because their relationship – their very coupling – is a choice that goes against nature. There is no gay gene, as far as we know. There is no credible scientific evidence that homosexuality is anything other than a choice (despite the “who would choose such a ‘horrible’ way to be, when no one accepts me waaa waaa boo-hoo” argument, the answer to which is: for the attention you crave that you think you can only get from someone else who has chosen your lifestyle).
The burden of proof lies on anyone who makes the claim that homosexuality is a genetic condition, rather than a choice.
Until you can prove that homosexuality is the equivalent of heterosexuality, it is illogical, irrational and wrong (logically, if not morally) to equivocate between heterosexual marriages and homosexual unions.
I’m assuming that my last post did not make it through the delicate filter, so here is a second attempt. Perhaps, whatever offensive material that was against the moderation policy will have been removed in this iteration. As a point that should be irrelevant but is likely not, I am not gay. I would like to clarify that, incase the inspesific “you” mentioned several times is pointed directly at me.
It was not implicit in what you said. Otherwise, I would not have made the dictinction. What I read was the following:
To look at your second point:
Now, while I disgree with the pursecution of this religious organization, the Mormon Church has been said to have donated $20 million to furthering the passing of Prop 8. This, of course, does not include the amount of money included in getting the initative enough exposure to be placed on the ballot at all. Under the same thought processes, the Mormon church should have put that time and money towards helping causes that promote peace and unity. What could $20 million purchase in regards to food and shelter for impovrished areas? What programs to help combat illiteracy could have been futhered by $20 million?
The legal fees themselves are grossly disproportionate. A marriage license generally costs about $100. Wills and other such legal documents are one of the most disputed forms of legal documents, and oftentimes will still not get you into the hospital to see your dying loved one. A simple “I’m their wife/husband.” is enough to get you to their bedside in a time of crisis. Marriage licenses have none of those same issues.
What institution did you get your medical degree in psychology from, may I ask? Otherwise, I might have to chalk this up to an ad hominem. I have yet to call you any names or attack your arguments as invalid because of your religion. There is evidence to support the statement that a fervent belief in any religion can be a sign of insanity.
What I propose is something that has been stated before, and is not crazy, as you are wont to dismiss it as. Perhaps I did not explain it in enough detail. What is propossed is simple: marriages in a church; civil unions in the government. Let the “sancity of marriage” that so many proponents should be accepted and kept clean in their eyes. Religious organizations, therefor, should be given the rights to marriage, but in the eyes of the government, Civil Unions are what the document is called.
The comparrision can be easily made. There is a minority being oppressed by a majority. The same law treats two people in different ways with no illegal action to warrant the difference. “You may marry this person, but not this person.” In that essence, it is the same.
This is an appeal to nature, which is also a logical fallacy. However, it can also be disproven. Here are some sources to look at that you might find informative.
Gay Sheep
Japanese macaques
American Bison
Bottlenose Dolphins
Black Swans
Walrusus
Gray Whales
Guianian-Cock-of-the-Rock
Bonobo Chimpanzees
There are numerous, generally trustworthy resources that point towards this kind of information. The proof that you seek I lay humbly at your feet. Look. Learn.
How is it irrational? How is it illogical? How is it wrong? Many homosexual couples commit to one another far more deeply than heterosexual couples. Children are adopted into loving, caring, homosexual homes. Can the same be said for all of the homes of children of heterosexual couples? These people choose children, if they do. It is not thrust upon them, as such things are on many heterosexual couples too young to truly understand the burden of child rearing.
First, the “you” is a pretty wide generalization when I use it. I’m not referring to “you” as in “you gay.” I’m referring to “you” as “the person(s) on the other side of the debate.” So, yeah… don’t take it personally.
I’m not going to argue whether or not it was implicit in my original statement that I meant that they contribute nothing to society as a result of their relationship. That is what I meant. I guess I should’ve chosen my original words more carefully.
Your incessant rambling about what you think the Mormons should do with their money is totally irrelevant to the debate at hand. In the future, please be advised that this sort of material is considered “not constructive,” and can be reason enough for me to keep it from getting through the “delicate filter” to which you referred, earlier.
The Mormons do a lot with their money that I disagree with, but it’s their money, and it’s not my, your or anyone else’s place to tell them what they can and can’t do with it, unless they break the law, which they haven’t.
Additionally, it’s not an ad hominem attack to call you crazy, if you say things that are crazy. For example: arguing that marriage should not be a legally recognized institution (while, ironically, arguing for the legalization of gay marriage). Contradictions aside, that argument is crazy. You, therefore, are a crazy person for making the crazy argument. It’s not an attack if it’s true.
Also, you said, “There is evidence to support the statement that a fervent belief in any religion can be a sign of insanity.” Okay, this is pretty much just a repetition of Bill Maher’s premise, in the “shockumentery,” Religulous. Aside from being offensive, you’re wrong. I’m not going to belabor the point by indulging you in an argument about this. You’re wrong. Move on.
You also ramble on, in your above comment, about how, “There is a minority being oppressed by a majority.” Where I’m from, we call this the “democratic system,” by which the majority imposes its will on the minority. If the minority doesn’t like it, they can move to Canada where it’s legal to marry people of the same gender.
Besides, homosexuals are not being “oppressed.” Go to Iran or Saudi Arabia, if you want oppression of homosexuals (by the way, where are the liberal protesters outside Muslim mosques?). They’re simply being denied the unnecessary and absurd redefinition of the term “marriage” they seek by the majority of people, who also have a vested interest in the issue, which should not be disregarded in favor of a minority’s unreasonable desires. This has nothing to do with bigotry or racism, as on might argue is the case with interracial marriage, so you are comparing apples and oranges.
As with regard to your criticism that this is an appeal to nature, I find it amusing that the source you cited said, “(the argument) can, however, be made stronger by showing why at least in specific cases, there may be a (possibly unspecifiable) benefit to preserving nature as it is. A typical ecological argument along these lines is that human beings are part of a complex biological system that is highly sensitive to shocks, and therefore it is dangerous for humans to engage in activities that might damage the system in ways we cannot predict. Note, however, that this approach no longer appeals to nature itself, but to the value of human survival.”
In the case of sodomy, this is exactly what is implicit in the whole objection to homosexuality on the grounds that it defies what is natural: if this way of life is embraced, it will diminish reproduction rate of our species by promoting aberrant behavior. While that may not currently threaten the immediate survival of our species, one can argue that it is not a “net positive.”
In addition to these considerations, it should be noted that in the case of the animals you listed (and others), homosexual activity is a sign of dominance – not hedonism; it’s not a regular sexual activity done because it’s chosen, it’s a way to subjugate another member of the species and force them to submit to the dominant member of the species. And before you go off on some absurd tangent about how homosexuality is not hedonistic, just read this: http://www.danheller.com/sf-folsom.html or do a Google search for the “Folsom Street Fair.”
I’m not going to belabor the point about how your arguments are irrational, illogical, etc. If you can’t see it, it’s not because I haven’t clearly made my case – it’s because you don’t want to. You are a crazy person; you say things like, “Children are adopted into loving, caring, homosexual homes. Can the same be said for all of the homes of children of heterosexual couples?” The answer is unequivocally: YES, IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME!! It has been happening for years.
Oh, and speaking of logical fallacies, you finished your post with one:
“It is not thrust upon them, as such things are on many heterosexual couples too young to truly understand the burden of child rearing.”
This is a variation of the complex question. Good job. Now, quit posting nonsense on my blog. If you don’t have something constructive and rational to post, you’ll find the Comment Moderation policy to be pretty effective in weeding out further nonsense. I don’t have time to try to argue with every liberal nut on the internet.